Shooting Incident in Aurora, CO

[Guest Atlya]

And that one's misleading to the point of being a conscious effort to obfuscate the truth.

Good job, you're one step away from being an outright liar.

I gotta somewhat agree with Loki, those numbers should at least be aligned to the population number to mean at least a bit...

[bdog]

I gotta somewhat agree with Loki, those numbers should at least be aligned to the population number to mean at least a bit...

Ok.  The United States has 3.8x the amount of people as Germany, which would bring Germany up to 740 per year, or about 7.7% of that of America.

If we did the same thing for England/Wales, it would bring them up to 225 per year, or 2.3%.

We're still talking about murder rates being greater by a factor of anywhere between 1300% to 4400%.  That's not exactly what you call statistically insignificant.   

[Achernar]

I'm trying real hard not to go all "Pat Buchanan" and point out that I can't think of a European nation with a culture of criminality that, strictly speaking, glorifies murder.

Looks like I failed.

[Guest Atlya]

I'm trying real hard not to go all "Pat Buchanan" and point out that I can't think of a European nation with a culture of criminality that, strictly speaking, glorifies murder.

Looks like I failed.

Technically, a lot of Americans originates from Europe.

[Arns]

Comparing firearm deaths is disingenous.

First of all, half of them are suicides.

Suicide rate in the US is nothing special, and does it matter whether someone hangs themselves, or shoots themselves? You can't ban rope, or charcoal and duct tape. Banning guns is doable, but cure would be worse than disease.... certainly in the US.

More than half of the murders are due to blacks killing each other.

I don't know why they do it, but even almost all-black, reasonably prosperous and orderdly places like Barbados have a murder rate of 11 / 100K.

Not counting them, US with left with a murder rate of 2.7 / 100K. Which is higher than EU somewhat, but nothing extra special.

@BDog

What numbers are you using?

US murder rate is ~5 /100K. British is 1.2 /100K.  With all the gangs and crap, it's still only 4 times UK rate.

Are you going to suggest guns cause gangs?

[Dakadave]

Something in those gun death statistics that people tend to forget are all the self defense killings that are legitimate...They are lumped into the homicide category as a justifiable homicide. I dont have the figures in front of me but I know its a lot more than you might guess. One result of an armed citizenry that can defend themselves is a lot more dead criminals.

[Achernar]

Comparing firearm deaths is disingenous.

First of all, half of them are suicides.

Suicide rate in the US is nothing special, and does it matter whether someone hangs themselves, or shoots themselves? You can't ban rope, or charcoal and duct tape. Banning guns is doable, but cure would be worse than disease.... certainly in the US.

More than half of the murders are due to blacks killing each other.

I don't know why they do it, but even almost all-black, reasonably prosperous and orderdly places like Barbados have a murder rate of 11 / 100K.

Not counting them, US with left with a murder rate of 2.7 / 100K. Which is higher than EU somewhat, but nothing extra special.

@BDog

What numbers are you using?

US murder rate is ~5 /100K. British is 1.2 /100K.  With all the gangs and crap, it's still only 4 times UK rate.

Are you going to suggest guns cause gangs?

I'm going to temper this slightly.  First off, black Americans are, obviously, Americans.  That urban black culture leads to death, drug use and an outrageously high illegitimacy rate (over 70%) does not mean you can just take them out of the statistics, but it does mean that we have a portion of our population skewing certain statistics much higher.

I have no damn idea why black Americans, especially urban youth, are practically slaughtering each-other.  I could not tell you why the leading cause of death of black men ages 18-35 is other black men ages 18-35, but that is the case.  I do not think for a moment, however, that the cause of that is guns.  Guns do not cause violence.  Are they a tool that can be used to violent ends?  Absolutely, they can be, but they cannot be the cause of anything.

[bdog]

@BDog

What numbers are you using?

US murder rate is ~5 /100K. British is 1.2 /100K.  With all the gangs and crap, it's still only 4 times UK rate.

Are you going to suggest guns cause gangs?

I used figures from that gun chart.  In any case, "only 4 times" is still a huge difference, particularly when you're talking murder rates.   

Guns don't cause gangs, they just make it easier for people to kill one another. 

Gun control is actually a red herring.  The real issues are generational poverty and an educational system based on property tax.  I'm not saying people aren't responsible for their own lives, but pointing fingers fixes nothing, and the closest thing we have to a magic wand is an egalitarian educational system that shows an alternate path to disenfranchised youth.  On an institutional level we don't invest in our poor*, and THEY FUCKING KNOW IT.  Black youth know they're second class... they know rich white folks don't pay taxes... they know rich folks have access to significantly better schools... they know white collar crime goes relatively unpunished... and they know the people running the show "have no damn idea" about what really goes on their lives.   

*Giving band-aids after the fact doesn't count as investment.

“Treat a man as he is, he will remain so. Treat a man the way he can be and ought to be, and he will become as he can be and should be." - Goethe

[vennie]

I'm going to temper this slightly.  First off, black Americans are, obviously, Americans.  That urban black culture leads to death, drug use and an outrageously high illegitimacy rate (over 70%) does not mean you can just take them out of the statistics, but it does mean that we have a portion of our population skewing certain statistics much higher.

I have no damn idea why black Americans, especially urban youth, are practically slaughtering each-other.  I could not tell you why the leading cause of death of black men ages 18-35 is other black men ages 18-35, but that is the case.  I do not think for a moment, however, that the cause of that is guns.  Guns do not cause violence.  Are they a tool that can be used to violent ends?  Absolutely, they can be, but they cannot be the cause of anything.

Not entirely true. The mere fact of having a gun changes the way one reacts to situations.

Simple example; having one will elevate your level of power above someone who does not have one. This alone will change the way the gunbearer responds to certain situations. In alot of cases the gunbearer will respond more aggressively to a situation as that he wouldn't bear arms.

Your statement it cannot be the cause of anything is only true when you isolate and consider the gun itself.

[Achernar]

Not entirely true. The mere fact of having a gun changes the way one reacts to situations.

Simple example; having one will elevate your level of power above someone who does not have one. This alone will change the way the gunbearer responds to certain situations. In alot of cases the gunbearer will respond more aggressively to a situation as that he wouldn't bear arms.

Your statement it cannot be the cause of anything is only true when you isolate and consider the gun itself.

As someone who at one point carried a gun on his person with great frequency (haven't kept up with my concealed carry), I can tell you that this is patently untrue and the training involved in getting that license eradicates that mentality.

I have drawn on someone once, ever, and it was for the sake of stopping a crime in the act and they had a gun of their own.

[vennie]

As someone who at one point carried a gun on his person with great frequency (haven't kept up with my concealed carry), I can tell you that this is patently untrue and the training involved in getting that license eradicates that mentality.

I have drawn on someone once, ever, and it was for the sake of stopping a crime in the act and they had a gun of their own.

Untrue. Even military personnel experience what I described, and they receive a bit more training being professionals as a random gunbearer. Just because you do not relate to what I described, or simply do not admit it, does not mean it is not so for other people.

[rickgm]

You're suggesting for America to turn into the Wild Wild West, where everyone just starts shooting.

Good on film, not so much in real life.

So you think it is better to just have the one "bad guy" doing all the shooting?

Not everyone will have a firearm and those that do will have been trained to use it properly.  Out of those who do have a gun, many will still be hiding or running away rather than be a "hero."  So in any given crowd, there may be one or two people who have a weapon and are willing to use it.

I just think you have a flawed vision that gun owners are all a bunch of ignorant fools who will just pull out their weapons and start shooting indiscriminately.  My guess is that you have never owned a gun.  If you had, you would understand that 99% of gun owners are obsessed with safety, proper training and respect for firearms. 

[bdog]

As someone who at one point carried a gun on his person with great frequency (haven't kept up with my concealed carry), I can tell you that this is patently untrue and the training involved in getting that license eradicates that mentality.

I have drawn on someone once, ever, and it was for the sake of stopping a crime in the act and they had a gun of their own.

I hope you're not saying there's no difference between your mentality and the mentality of a thug on the street?  Because that would be ridiculous. 

But, like I said, gun control is a red herring.  The deaths of 10,000 people (often gang related) in this country is a drop in the larger bucket known as institutionalized inequity.  People want to talk about gun control because they don't want to talk about the real issues. 

Over the next month we're going to see debates over gun control... it's already all over the place.  Don't be suckered into thinking it's a significant and meaningful difference between the left and right.  Neither side wants to see murders.  The media is divisive and distracting. 

[Achernar]

So you think it is better to just have the one "bad guy" doing all the shooting?

Not everyone will have a firearm and those that do will have been trained to use it properly.  Out of those who do have a gun, many will still be hiding or running away rather than be a "hero."  So in any given crowd, there may be one or two people who have a weapon and are willing to use it.

I just think you have a flawed vision that gun owners are all a bunch of ignorant fools who will just pull out their weapons and start shooting indiscriminately.  My guess is that you have never owned a gun.  If you had, you would understand that 99% of gun owners are obsessed with safety, proper training and respect for firearms.

Not helpful.

Especially the bit about "doing all the shooting".

It's true, if you draw a gun on someone, you never do it without being fully prepared to shoot and, potentially, end another human being's life.  However, that is the worst-case scenario once the weapon has been drawn, the scenario in which the law-abiding gun owner has to fire their weapon in self defence is, without a doubt, a failure scenario.

It's not as bad as the scenario in which the citizen fails to defend themselves, but it is absolutely a condition of failure if someone gets shot.  Throwing around language like "doing all the shooting" makes it sound like someone buys a gun with the intent of, at some point, shooting another person and that is not the case for any responsible gun owner.

[rickgm]

Not entirely true. The mere fact of having a gun changes the way one reacts to situations.

Simple example; having one will elevate your level of power above someone who does not have one. This alone will change the way the gunbearer responds to certain situations. In alot of cases the gunbearer will respond more aggressively to a situation as that he wouldn't bear arms.

Just curious...  Are you surmising this? Or do you have evidence?

[Arns]

@bdog

Irish, Italians and such  weren't liked, accepted or rich back in the day. Yet these days they don't form an underclass.

You think there's a conspiracy to keep the blacks down?

[vennie]

So you think it is better to just have the one "bad guy" doing all the shooting?

Not everyone will have a firearm and those that do will have been trained to use it properly.  Out of those who do have a gun, many will still be hiding or running away rather than be a "hero."  So in any given crowd, there may be one or two people who have a weapon and are willing to use it.

I just think you have a flawed vision that gun owners are all a bunch of ignorant fools who will just pull out their weapons and start shooting indiscriminately.  My guess is that you have never owned a gun.  If you had, you would understand that 99% of gun owners are obsessed with safety, proper training and respect for firearms.

Oh no no. Most of my family is either in the military or police. My brother is even a weapon instructor as a Lieutenant on just about any gun or rifle the military uses, which I have also shot myself at the range.

Being so close to professionals and seeing how even they fuck up from time to time, even though they handle that stuff all the time as opposed to amateurs, I'm not really sure it's the wisest choice to give the general public access to them.

But my main point is still that if you allow the general public to carry firearms with the intent to use them 'when necessary', that effectively makes them judge, jury and executioner. Or, the Wild Wild West.

You've got a judicial system for a reason.

A shooting is an extreme example, because it's quite clear that the purpetrator has to be stopped. But what if the lines aren't as blurry? What if a person trying to stop the bad guy makes a mistake and shoots an innocent bystander either by missing or by targeting the wrong person?

I could go on and on about where it all could go wrong, but that's exactly the problem. And sure, police can go wrong too, but that would be different. As long as he followed all the rules, he can't be blamed. You, however, are fucked.

[Achernar]

@bdog

Irish, Italians and such  weren't liked, accepted or rich back in the day. Yet these days they don't form an underclass.

You think there's a conspiracy to keep the blacks down?

There is.

LBJ and the DNC did what millennia of slavery never could, they broke the back of the black man.

There's not much denying that American blacks pretty much live on the plantation when it comes to getting their checks from the government and being a consistent Democrat voting block.  If you want to call it The Man, you can, but there was absolutely a conscious effort under the Great Society programs to keep blacks down and it was incredibly successful.

And I feel like throwing in a picture of the titular character of Uncle Jesse's Cabin.

[rickgm]

Throwing around language like "doing all the shooting" makes it sound like someone buys a gun with the intent of, at some point, shooting another person and that is not the case for any responsible gun owner.

Huh?  Did I miss something?  Is that not what happened?

[Achernar]

Huh?  Did I miss something?  Is that not what happened?

Throwing around language like "doing all the shooting" makes it sound like someone buys a gun with the intent of, at some point, shooting another person and that is not the case for any responsible gun owner.

responsible gun owner

Read harder.

[rickgm]

Oh no no. Most of my family is either in the military or police. My brother is even a weapon instructor as a Lieutenant on just about any gun or rifle the military uses, which I have also shot myself at the range.

Being so close to professionals and seeing how even they fuck up from time to time, even though they handle that stuff all the time as opposed to amateurs, I'm not really sure it's the wisest choice to give the general public access to them.

But my main point is still that if you allow the general public to carry firearms with the intent to use them 'when necessary', that effectively makes them judge, jury and executioner. Or, the Wild Wild West.

You've got a judicial system for a reason.

A shooting is an extreme example, because it's quite clear that the purpetrator has to be stopped. But what if the lines aren't as blurry? What if a person trying to stop the bad guy makes a mistake and shoots an innocent bystander either by missing or by targeting the wrong person?

I could go on and on about where it all could go wrong, but that's exactly the problem. And sure, police can go wrong too, but that would be different. As long as he followed all the rules, he can't be blamed. You, however, are fucked.

Well I won't argue with that...  Any time a civilian has to shoot someone he or she is probably going to be arrested.  There are strict laws defining when it is justifiable and you damn well better memorize them or you will be in a world of shit.  Cops on the other hand will be "chalked up" as having "made a mistake."

[rickgm]

Read harder.

Sorry... you lost me.

[bdog]

@bdog

Irish, Italians and such  weren't liked, accepted or rich back in the day. Yet these days they don't form an underclass.

You think there's a conspiracy to keep the blacks down?

I'll remind you of Brown vs Board of Education, 1954.  It wasn't a conspiracy to keep blacks down.  It was wide out in the open.  My dad was actually involved with the Civil Rights movement in Louisville, and even the president of an Ad Hoc organization that came about to free men who were charged with causing riots that came about after the assassination of the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.  That's how not long ago it was.

[rickgm]

I have no damn idea why black Americans, especially urban youth, are practically slaughtering each-other.  I could not tell you why the leading cause of death of black men ages 18-35 is other black men ages 18-35, but that is the case.  I do not think for a moment, however, that the cause of that is guns.  Guns do not cause violence.  Are they a tool that can be used to violent ends?  Absolutely, they can be, but they cannot be the cause of anything.

This is why we never seem to make any progress...  When shit like this happens, the attention always focuses on guns.  We scratch our heads and wonder why guns keep killing innocent people.  What can we do about these guns?  On a side note, this particular gun had a psychopath attached to it.

[gta]

Let's all recenter to the most important part of this subject...

What do you think of Dark Knight Rises? I'm pretty sure it sucks (loved the second one though, Heath was extraordinary).

I actually liked the movie quite a bit. It could have been shortened quite a bit, but the characters and plot were interesting.