Demi Lovato chooses their pronouns

[Guest Marshall7]

2 minutes ago, FluffyButtLover919 said:

I know what you mean, but I really do want to understand why people believe things that make no sense to me. I don’t want to offend anyone but how else do you learn if you don’t ask? I even asked my ethics professor recently and he couldn’t give me an answer either.

Yah I totally get that. Ive noticed with certain people that even when I ask in good faith, they insult me and respond with emotion. Many of our schools in America no longer teach critical thinking to children and now many of those children are adults and you see the lack of curiosity and questioning even their own beliefs. It's unfortunate. Keep asking those questions though, even if they insult you and assume the worst about your motives. 

[maybejames]

9 hours ago, FluffyButtLover919 said:

Gender is a synonym of sex. When you say gender role you’re talking about the stereotype of the gender like girls play with barbies and boys play with action figures. Gender is biological not feelings. If a girl wants to be more masculine that’s fine.  But you can’t change your biology. I get the transgender stuff, but I didn’t know there were more gender stuff than that. So to me when i call someone a boy or girl im talking XY chromosome or XX. What I understand from you is that you’re talking about the gender roles, is that correct?

Does this graph help with understanding the different terminologies?

43 minutes ago, FluffyButtLover919 said:

I really do want to understand why people believe things that make no sense to me. I don’t want to offend anyone but how else do you learn if you don’t ask?

It's new to a lot of people as they don't teach enough of it in schools and it's still a bit taboo. Full respect for wanting to learn and understand about it. I'm not an expert but I think of it as gender is in your brain and sex is in your pants.

[Woodsmont]

47 minutes ago, FluffyButtLover919 said:

I know what you mean, but I really do want to understand why people believe things that make no sense to me. I don’t want to offend anyone but how else do you learn if you don’t ask? I even asked my ethics professor recently and he couldn’t give me an answer either.

I think the difficulty is in the meaning of the word 'gender'. Originally 'gender' did not mean (biological) sex. It was first used in linguistics, about masculine and feminine words in certain languages (not my area of expertise). Then it was used to determine the roles of gender in society. What did it mean to be masculine or feminine? What is masculine or feminine? Why do persons with penises do these things, and why do persons with vagina's do other things? And why do we think those things are typically masculine or feminine? And how do we as a society or culture view what is is to be masculine or feminine? Those sorts of things and much more. I'm not at all all expert in this either.

Later on 'gender' became synonymous with 'sex'. That's why we talk about 'gender reveal parties', or a party that reveals whether the child is male or female. Because of this people get confused and angry when talking about gender. Earlier you said that gender is based on genitals. If you believe gender is the same as sex it must be very hard to swallow that there are more than two genders. However when people say there are more than two genders they don't talk about biological sex.

My native language is not English so I did not grow up with the word 'gender'. What I do now is use 'sex' to talk about what a person biologically is, and 'gender' for what that person identifies as. Regarding this whole debate I can advise you that if people are talking about, for example, being transgender, or what kind of pronouns, or being non binary, the word 'gender' is not used to refer to biological sex. It the case of Demi Lovato being non-binary, it has nothing to do with their genitals, just how they view themselves to be. 

That said, this is a complicated issue with a lot of people saying a lot of different things. It's a touchy subject, mainly because of the real threat of bigotry and discrimination. I compliment you for trying to figure it all out and I wish you good luck.  

[decadent]

"what physical proof tells someone what gender you are?"

 

That's it right there, hoss.  That's the question that has blown up binary gender constructs when put under a microscope. You presume to know, but you don't, and you can't, so you should just let someone tell you if they gain some proper sense for themselves. 

[FluffyButtLover919]

13 hours ago, maybejames said:

Does this graph help with understanding the different terminologies?

It's new to a lot of people as they don't teach enough of it in schools and it's still a bit taboo. Full respect for wanting to learn and understand about it. I'm not an expert but I think of it as gender is in your brain and sex is in your pants.

Thanks, i that graph actually does help me a little. It seems that people use the word gender differently. From what I have always understood it to be biological sex. 

[Guest Marshall7]

On 5/23/2021 at 3:06 PM, Expanditor said:

Some people don’t want to be defined solely by their gender, of which pronouns are an aspect. This isn’t a far stretch from outdated views like painting a girls room pink because it’s a ‘girls colour’. It’s not always a case of challenging biology, as much as it’s about not being defined by your biology in the first place.

I’m not saying you’re a bigot, that ultimately comes down to whether you respect the wishes of others for stuff like this. If you know someone does/doesn’t want to referred to in a specific manner a deliberately chose to ignore that, then yes you would be, it’s literally the definition, exactly the same if you insisted on using racial slurs (which I’m sure people also attempt to rationalise on the basis of biology is biology).

There's another side to this that I haven't seen addressed. CBS 60 Minutes just did a special where they interviewed a bunch of different people who regret transitioning. The thing I keep seeing from people is the argument of "feeling." Feelings change. Sometimes people truly feel like they were born in the wrong body. Demi was just engaged to a man and seemed to be on a firm path, knowing who she was. Then something happened and they broke off the engagement. Next thing you know, she's claiming to be non-binary. I'm not saying the reason why she's saying this now is because it didn't work out with this man, but there have been plenty of examples of people who have gone through traumatic situations that they then react to in an extreme manner. Again, not to say this is what's happening with Demi. I, personally, believe that most "gender fluid" or "trans people" were not actually born in the "wrong body" but have just been extremely messed up in their lives and this is an avenue to express that. I've just rarely seen an instance where someone's life was great and relatively normal and they just happened to go to this place mentally with wanting to be non-binary or trans. My guess is this will just be another phase for Demi and then she will announce some other direction for her life. I just hope she doesnt go down the Elen Paige route and destroy her beautiful body in the name of "feeling better about herself." I hope she gets real help before permanently damaging herself.

[Expanditor]

54 minutes ago, MarshallT said:

There's another side to this that I haven't seen addressed. CBS 60 Minutes just did a special where they interviewed a bunch of different people who regret transitioning. The thing I keep seeing from people is the argument of "feeling." Feelings change. Sometimes people truly feel like they were born in the wrong body. Demi was just engaged to a man and seemed to be on a firm path, knowing who she was. Then something happened and they broke off the engagement. Next thing you know, she's claiming to be non-binary. I'm not saying the reason why she's saying this now is because it didn't work out with this man, but there have been plenty of examples of people who have gone through traumatic situations that they then react to in an extreme manner. Again, not to say this is what's happening with Demi. I, personally, believe that most "gender fluid" or "trans people" were not actually born in the "wrong body" but have just been extremely messed up in their lives and this is an avenue to express that. I've just rarely seen an instance where someone's life was great and relatively normal and they just happened to go to this place mentally with wanting to be non-binary or trans. My guess is this will just be another phase for Demi and then she will announce some other direction for her life. I just hope she doesnt go down the Elen Paige route and destroy her beautiful body in the name of "feeling better about herself." I hope she gets real help before permanently damaging herself.

Well there’s an element of chicken and egg there though. Your assumption is that her relationship ending preceded the decision to come out as non-binary, rather than was a post-decision result or even entirely unrelated to being non-binary. Similarly the the suggestion you’re making about trans and gender fluidity being a result of being ‘messed up’ assumes that it is a result of trauma/issues and not that the struggle to reconcile gender identity etc may actually be what precipitates the life issues.

Can’t really comment on that show, since I’m not American, but from my experience US attitudes are actually significantly more conservative than Europe for example, so it doesn’t surprise me there’s a show specifically aimed at those who regretted transitioning. TV is generally pretty sketchy for assessing topics since their goal is to sensationalise and make money off the back of it, it’s like having two scientists on the news showing two equal points of view on a scientific issue, when the actual scientific consensus is like 99% agreed on one of those points, it’s ultimately done to portray legitimacy to largely discredited positions or reinforce confirmation bias. Personally I’d want to see the science and research on post-transition attitudes to get an understanding on how many see it as a positive or negative life experience ultimately, similarly whether post-transitioned individuals have more stable mental health and lives etc. Tbf I suspect it would prove quite difficult to separate out what is a casual and what is a resultant issue.

[Guest Marshall7]

3 minutes ago, Expanditor said:

Well there’s an element of chicken and egg there though. Your assumption is that her relationship ending preceded the decision to come out as non-binary, rather than was a post-decision result or even entirely unrelated to being non-binary. Similarly the the suggestion you’re making about trans and gender fluidity being a result of being ‘messed up’ assumes that it is a result of trauma/issues and not that the struggle to reconcile gender identity etc may actually be what precipitates the life issues.

Can’t really comment on that show, since I’m not American, but from my experience US attitudes are actually significantly more conservative than Europe for example, so it doesn’t surprise me there’s a show specifically aimed at those who regretted transitioning. TV is generally pretty sketchy for assessing topics since their goal is to sensationalise and make money off the back of it, it’s like having two scientists on the news showing two equal points of view on a scientific issue, when the actual scientific consensus is like 99% agreed on one of those points, it’s ultimately done to portray legitimacy to largely discredited positions or reinforce confirmation bias. Personally I’d want to see the science and research on post-transition attitudes to get an understanding on how many see it as a positive or negative life experience ultimately, similarly whether post-transitioned individuals have more stable mental health and lives etc. Tbf I suspect it would prove quite difficult to separate out what is a casual and what is a resultant issue.

That may be, but the fact remains that some of these people get life-altering permanent surgery removing body parts such as breasts which can not be easily, if at all, put back. My point is, many modern people seem to have this "life is all relative" and nothing is designed attitude. Since I personally believe that we were actually created and designed, I see all of this in a completely different light than someone who believes this whole thing is some cosmic accident where, in the end, nothing matters. But again, this is just what I believe. Unfortunately, more and more, it seems to be a view which is scoffed as as "outdated and bigoted" or "discredited. Btw, most of our media in the "mainstream" is extremely progressive and loves pushing child-transitioning and even have tried to start rationalizing and normalizing grown men's feelings for underage girls. Not to mention "drag queen story hour" to kids. We may not be as down-the-rabbit-hole in progressive politics and ideology as our European counterparts, but our major institutions and government for the most part are now. So, don't worry, soon this country will be just like Europe in many ways. I just completely see that as terrifying to be honest. To be frank, I would say, given my politics and personal beliefs, most people on this site and into this fetish believe very much the opposite of me which is fine. I have found some who see eye to eye with me. Unfortunately, they usually can't talk much about it or be honest for fear of backlash on this site and others.  

[Expanditor]

3 minutes ago, MarshallT said:

That may be, but the fact remains that some of these people get life-altering permanent surgery removing body parts such as breasts which can not be easily, if at all, put back. My point is, many modern people seem to have this "life is all relative" and nothing is designed attitude. Since I personally believe that we were actually created and designed, I see all of this in a completely different light than someone who believes this whole thing is some cosmic accident where, in the end, nothing matters. But again, this is just what I believe. Unfortunately, more and more, it seems to be a view which is scoffed as as "outdated and bigoted" or "discredited. Btw, most of our media in the "mainstream" is extremely progressive and loves pushing child-transitioning and even have tried to start rationalizing and normalizing grown men's feelings for underage girls. Not to mention "drag queen story hour" to kids. We may not be as down-the-rabbit-hole in progressive politics and ideology as our European counterparts, but our major institutions and government for the most part are now. So, don't worry, soon this country will be just like Europe in many ways. I just completely see that as terrifying to be honest. To be frank, I would say, given my politics and personal beliefs, most people on this site and into this fetish believe very much the opposite of me which is fine. I have found some who see eye to eye with me. Unfortunately, they usually can't talk much about it or be honest for fear of backlash on this site and others.  

You’re welcome to your own view of the world, as we all are. I would posit that if we were all created and designed, then presumably individuals who don’t feel they were born as they should be were in fact created and designed to be that way and to explore who they were meant to be. The alternative I would assume is to suggest they are in some way defective from their design which would imply an imperfect creator. That is assuming we are arrogant enough to believe we can have any comprehension of the plans and designs of a being(s) that can create life and in turn define what is right and wrong about those creations. There’s also the the wider metaphysical discussion then around free will and determination.

As for media like I say, Europe doesn’t have an agenda to normalising paedophilia and the like 🤷‍♂️ Again, it sounds very much like the US to have sensationalist media to reinforce views and opinions. At least that’s the impression I get of US media as an outside observer. European countries seem quite chill places by comparison to the US 😅

[thadrou90]

Two things:

On 5/30/2021 at 8:09 PM, MarshallT said:

That may be, but the fact remains that some of these people get life-altering permanent surgery removing body parts such as breasts which can not be easily, if at all, put back. My point is, many modern people seem to have this "life is all relative" and nothing is designed attitude. Since I personally believe that we were actually created and designed, I see all of this in a completely different light than someone who believes this whole thing is some cosmic accident where, in the end, nothing matters. But again, this is just what I believe. Unfortunately, more and more, it seems to be a view which is scoffed as as "outdated and bigoted" or "discredited. Btw, most of our media in the "mainstream" is extremely progressive and loves pushing child-transitioning and even have tried to start rationalizing and normalizing grown men's feelings for underage girls. Not to mention "drag queen story hour" to kids. We may not be as down-the-rabbit-hole in progressive politics and ideology as our European counterparts, but our major institutions and government for the most part are now. So, don't worry, soon this country will be just like Europe in many ways. I just completely see that as terrifying to be honest. To be frank, I would say, given my politics and personal beliefs, most people on this site and into this fetish believe very much the opposite of me which is fine. I have found some who see eye to eye with me. Unfortunately, they usually can't talk much about it or be honest for fear of backlash on this site and others.  

1. We don't have yet a good body of research on de-transitioning, so it's difficult to draw detailed conclusions about why and how often it happens. What we have so far suggests that it's quite rare, done for a variety of reasons (not just because people got their gender [identity] "wrong"), and usually happens before surgery, if at all. More here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detransition.

On 5/30/2021 at 6:40 PM, MarshallT said:

I just hope she doesnt go down the Elen Paige route and destroy her beautiful body in the name of "feeling better about herself." I hope she gets real help before permanently damaging herself. [emphasis added]

2. First of all, I hope that whatever your belief about gender and gender identity, you can respect people's wishes and use their preferred names and pronouns--and so, Elliot* Page, and "they/them" rather than "her" for Demi. This is a matter of respect that costs you literally nothing. Second, I'd like to hope in a forum devoted to fatness and gaining kinks, we wouldn't talk about someone engaging in other forms of body modification as "destroying" or "damaging" themselves, least of all because of our sexual preferences about their "beautiful body." That same language is wielded against fat and gaining people in ways we should and often do reject, and as a matter of respect and dignity we should extend the same to trans and nonbinary people who alter their gender presentation or transition. Demi doesn't owe any of us anything.

[Guest Marshall7]

Were never going to agree on any of this so I will just step back now.

[thadrou90]

29 minutes ago, MarshallT said:

Were never going to agree on any of this so I will just step back now.

Perhaps not, but I do want to say that despite our differences I appreciate your willingness to engage, explain your thinking, and have a substantive discussion with real back and forth. I tried to do the same. All that is so hard for anonymous strangers on the internet to achieve. I'm happy that we all got as far as we did here.

[Guest Marshall7]

3 minutes ago, thadrou90 said:

Perhaps not, but I do want to say that despite our differences I appreciate your willingness to engage, explain your thinking, and have a substantive discussion with real back and forth. I tried to do the same. All that is so hard for anonymous strangers on the internet to achieve. I'm happy that we all got as far as we did here.

Well I appreciate that. I'd like to think we both mean well. Honestly I do truly care about their spirits/souls. It's not that I want to just jack off to "beautiful bodies." I feel the same way about men and their bodies and I'm not sexually attracted to males at all haha. I would never do anything to try to get anyone to kill themselves or make them feel terrible purposefully. Hope you and everyone understand that. I do not hate any of these people whatsoever. In fact, I love them. 

[Avataг]

@thadrou90 @MarshallT

Jeez, guys...we're in The Abyss, stop behaving like that!

Just kidding, I really appreciate the civil discussion. I feel like we could as well move this thread to Serious discussion

[Guest Marshall7]

16 minutes ago, Drytuner said:

feel like talking about a group of people, this is stupid. 

Thank you. This "they" pronoun always makes me think of talking about some collective. Honestly, it sounds more dehumanizing using this term than she lol. But I guess this is what people want now. Yay modern world! 🤣

[vpprof]

9 hours ago, MarshallT said:

Thank you. This "they" pronoun always makes me think of talking about some collective. 

Yes, when I was learning English (which isn't my first language) a gazillion years ago, it felt this way to me too. This was of course long before the LGBT "revolution" and as someone rightly noted, it's standard element of the language: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/they
No one has to go if they don't want to.

Everyone knew where they stood …

An employee with a grievance can file a complaint if they need to.

The person who answered the phone said they didn't know where she was.

The people advocating this for nonconforming individuals just use something that's already been around.

Funny, this "discussion" here, basically people telling other people what to think, and nobody caring to ask, why the other person thinks what they think. (Oh, chute, I used "they", see? 😮 )

[You have a gut]

She's always been a basket case. I guess "they're" stuck in "their" wrong body"? The right body having both male and female sex organs?

[thadrou90]

10 hours ago, You have a gut said:

She's always been a basket case. I guess "they're" stuck in "their" wrong body"? The right body having both male and female sex organs?

Dude, we'd brought this discussion to a pretty good place. Please don't derail it with such a demeaning comment. "Basket case"--I'd rather see her as a person in pain who's struggled with mental health and addiction issues for a long time. Maybe even because she wasn't able to present her true gender to the world. I hope being out helps her get to a better place.