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goodgirlgrow

So Mary got doxxed and ** blocked talking about it

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@Mr Froggy Not sure I made clear I was saying that whoever doxxed her had some familiarity with her, and that she may have in turn had familiarity with them. That’s what my little allegory meant.

I do appreciate the split hair about which part of the act is upsetting because I was thinking about that aspect while driving around today lmao it is two things: uncovering that info and disseminating and/or using it to do something else, but both making up “doxxing.”

More than anything it’s the malicious use of whatever the doxxed info is that upsets me; whether stealing someone’s identity, ruining their career, or telling friends/family. I mean technically those things are IP that shouldn’t be shared ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Aren't a lot of platforms what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas? That agreements are between the user and the platform and not between users of the the platform? So once you take soemthing off Snapchat or whatever, you don’t have any rights to it?

Possession isn’t ownership, and ownership isn’t rights.

To color this a little, I have lived my life since I was 10 believing that the day will come what whatever you have ever done on the internet could be knowledge to all. Ever think about what it would be like to apply to a job at Alphabet Inc? What a joke. They’d know so so close everything about you. I mean, they do, it’s just a matter of wading through and lining up “anonymized data.” 
 

1 hour ago, Hereisaduck said:

I don't know about that.

Is “consumer“ a better word? Like seeing someone who works at a store? You don’t get things from them directly, you purchase goods from the store where they work (Jack off to content on the internet), but you see then every time you come. Maybe you hate them. Maybe you’re obsessed with them. Should go figure out their last name and where they goto school and tell their dad that they’re a whore? 

Remember the episode of Mad Men where Peter Campbell runs into his fiancée’s dad at a whore house?

Toward that end, I am pretty sure that I would only get doxxed by 2/6 (33%? Yikes... I need to look at who I date) of my ex boyfriends. That is, it would have to be 1 of 2 of my ex’s. Or someone who hated me in middle school. I never had any social media, never made a tinder TikTok twitter snapchap ig bumble any fucking thing. Shocker I’m so ill prepared to speak publicly on the internet. The worst I ever did was have a Xanga and promote fasting when I was an anorexic teenager. Ever. Can’t tin eye my shit.
 

Listen to me. Asking for it. 

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1 hour ago, goodgirlgrow said:

@Mr Froggy it is two things: uncovering that info and disseminating and/or using it to do something else, but both making up “doxxing.”

More than anything it’s the malicious use of whatever the doxxed info is that upsets me; whether stealing someone’s identity, ruining their career, or telling friends/family. I mean technically those things are IP that shouldn’t be shared ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Aren't a lot of platforms what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas? That agreements are between the user and the platform and not between users of the the platform? So once you take soemthing off Snapchat or whatever, you don’t have any rights to it?

Possession isn’t ownership, and ownership isn’t rights

I was about to tell you about my own legal credentials there but I stopped myself on the realisation this could one day be used as part of a patchwork to dox me 🤔😂

Whilst it's all morally indefensible - I personally have to draw a distinction between criminal use of someone's IRL identity (identity theft, dissemination for the intended purpose of causing targeted harassment etc)... and merely disseminating it "to ruin someone's life/career";  which (while still a dick move) is more akin to 'cancel culture' / sharing a secret which causes associates to cut ties with a person.   Both immoral - but not all actionable. 

So finding a Camgirl on social media (for example), independently sourcing her real world address (without hacking)... and then contacting her parents to tell them she does porn is likely malicious, certainly highly intrusive and immoral... but not illegal.   

Open platforms/online services cannot make terms that effectively turn the (public facing) usernames of their clients into privileged information.  I. E if I knew you in real life but only knew your username is ggg because I signed up at curvage ;  and curvage had a term on sign up that asserted IP rights over the usernames of their clients ;  it wouldn't be enforceable because your face paired with your username is already in the public domain. 

I suppose if I screenshotted one of your premium videos and sent this to your parents, this act alone would be copyright infringement - but claiming that is the case merely with screenshots of public facing profile pictures, usernames, free store previews etc on the basis of EULA terms would be much harder.  And there'd probably be a good fair use defence anyway because the purpose of the infringement was technically 'education' 😂

This is all specific to the issue of ownership/possession/ip rights though.  I actually expect she'd have far more luck pursuing the 'doxxing as a method of causing harassment' angle. 

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2 hours ago, dania201 said:

MrFroggy’s main argument is that since it’s hard to prosecute the doxxer, we should just throw up our hands and fault the victim for...whatever the doxxer was upset about. 
 

For someone who is so for lAw anD oRdeR it’s staring that you think the fault shouldn’t be with the bad actors themselves. Yes, we should lock our doors and be careful. But if someone breaks in, kills you in your sleep, the public shouldn't be like “this is why even if you have a gun, you shouldn’t sleep that deeply at night. Don’t be mad at the burglar, criminals going to crime—try not to be the one they want to crime on.” No woman in America thinks this is the ideal way to live. 

 

You nuked your whole credibility there by suggesting murder is in any way an appropriate comparison.  The literal worst crime possible (from which it is impossible to be even partially restored) is inherently a fallacious analogy. 

The law and risk assessing operate on degrees, distinction and nuance.   "Victim blaming" is often just a stylish rebranding of what ordinary people have historically called "criticising foolish behaviour".    Yes we refrain from 'victim blaming' when offering condolences (because its distasteful) - but we certainly take such criticisms on board when adjusting our own behaviour.   So yes... We lock our doors... we buy self defence weapons... but we also know (from the statistics) that it is irrational to then ALSO "sleep with one eye open" JUsT inCaSE that "isn't enough".    (This is what makes what you said false equivalency)

Being a model on the Internet, selling intimate material of yourself, engaging personally with your fans, engaging in controversial political statements.. and still thinking you'll be able to maintain perpetual anonymity is more like getting attacked in your bed after befriending a bunch of weirdos and having posters of yourself distributed where you're urinating on a national flag.  Sooner or later, someone's going to get pissed off and come for you specifically ... that's a targeted act brought on by your lack of awareness and fundamentally incomparable to the risk of a 1 in a million 'random' home invasion resulting in a murder. 

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6 hours ago, goodgirlgrow said:

I feel like this became a fucking pissing match of things you all learned your first year in college.

If you feel it’s content creators’ responsibility, what do you suggest they do?

if you feel it’s the hosting sites’ responsibility, what do you suggest?

Honestly what more can a creator do? I’m sure every model here is already doing everything they can to protect their identity.

The post I made earlier referencing a reply by one of the moderating staff to M-ary posting a screenshot is problematic. It was a person in power demeaning her for her opinion, this kind of shit justifies others urge to also attack. Some don’t realize the power they wield.

I’m not surprised the free speech defenders are saying that M-ary  exercising her free speech put her at a greater risk of doxing.  People have the right to speak up about things they don’t think are just. Virtue signalling is trying to appear like you have a certain set of values while not putting yourself at risk, like when large companies try to hop onto a justice movement to improve their image. Noticing something that you think is wrong and speaking up is honourable in my opinion.

“I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it”

It’s weird that doing online sex work and having an opinion are being compared to being a person that hangs out with creeps and likes to strangle cats. I get that your being hyperbolic, but wtf man? (I’m a slow typist so I should have screenshot that before you changed it to urinating on a flag) This is about lamenting about a horrible situation someone was put in and possible ways to stop it from happening again, not defending a rapist in court.

I think the creators here deserve the utmost respect the risk they are taking by creating the content we enjoy, regardless of what you think of their opinions. These people are essentially small local business, and if you don’t what they have to say don’t buy from them.

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1 hour ago, Mr Froggy said:

Sooner or later, someone's going to get pissed off and come for you specifically ... that's a targeted act brought on by your lack of awareness.

Exactly. Fuck. You. 

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2 hours ago, Mr Froggy said:

I was about to tell you about my own legal credentials there but I stopped myself on the realisation this could one day be used as part of a patchwork to dox me 🤔😂

Well, I guess it’s cool we have someone who passed the LSAT here

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45 minutes ago, CaptainObvious said:

Honestly what more can a creator do? I’m sure every model here is already doing everything they can to protect their identity.

.

I’m not surprised the free speech defenders are saying that M-ary  exercising her free speech put her at a greater risk of doxing.  People have the right to speak up about things they don’t think are just. Virtue signalling is trying to appear like you have a certain set of values while not putting yourself at risk, like when large companies try to hop onto a justice movement to improve their image. Noticing something that you think is wrong and speaking up is honourable in my opinion.

“I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it”

It’s weird that doing online sex work and having an opinion are being compared to being a person that hangs out with creeps and likes to strangle cats. I get that your being hyperbolic, but wtf man? (I’m a slow typist so I should have screenshot that before you changed it to urinating on a flag) This is about lamenting about a horrible situation someone was put in and possible ways to stop it from happening again, not defending a rapist in court.

I think the creators here deserve the utmost respect the risk they are taking by creating the content we enjoy, regardless of what you think of their opinions. These people are essentially small local business, and if you don’t what they have to say don’t buy from them.

 

Doing online sex work very much is (figuratively) "hanging out with creeps" - in a reductionist sense.  That's part of the reason doxxing is such a threat for sex workers;   the presumption that many of their 'fans' are only a single online slight or misunderstood DM away from becoming a threat to that sex worker's personal safety. 

And regarding changing the reference from strangling a cat to pissing on a flag.  Yes I did this because it made the analogy more accurate - voluntarily - after only a few minutes.... So you win no 'Internet argument points' today for criticising my argument based on it (or even bringing it up tbh). 

 

Re - some "ways to stop it happening again" are precisely what I'm suggesting.   I've had this discussion many times on many different platforms going back over 10 years.   It's just a moral circle jerk for us all to sit here and agree how terrible doxxing is and how "there's no excuse for it".    What's that going to achieve?  It's going to pre-emptively 'shame' some bitter Incel somewhere out there from doing it again when his favourite content creator refuses his creepy request to meet up in person?   Give me a break. 

 

What I'm suggesting for content creators is that you're deluded if you think you can be politically active AND show your face online nowadays without having your IRL identity eventually figured out and exposed.  So my suggestion is simply to stop thinking you can have your cake and eat it because internets is serious business.  Being an adult content creator isn't even relevant to the crux of this argument tbh - though it certainly doesn't help matters!   It just pours gasoline on an already uneasy fire. 

I am a pragmatist so my suggestion is Choose.   What's more important to you?  The money and adoration that comes to you from a thousand simps fawning over your pretty face?   Or your (likely unoriginal and superfluous) political opinions?     

If you want to remain anonymous - you can either show your face + maintain a careful lowkey presence, steering clear of controversial subjects  *OR*   you can be as politically active and outspoken as you like... But without showing your face. 

 

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1 minute ago, goodgirlgrow said:

Well, I guess it’s cool we have someone who passed the LSAT here

I let the first comment go about "people here engaging in a pissing match using things they learned in their first year of college" - but your attempts to snidely delegitimise all other speakers here arent helpful 

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Just now, Mr Froggy said:

I let the first comment go about "people here engaging in a pissing match using things they learned in their first year of college" - but your attempts to snidely delegitimise all other speakers here arent helpful 

Neither are yours? Laughing emoji at my arguments? 

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1 minute ago, goodgirlgrow said:

Neither are yours? Laughing emoji at my arguments? 

I was laughing at myself there.  Laughing at the absurdity and apparent injustice of (some mild form of) doxxing likely being considered "educational" for the purpose of a Fair Use copyright defence.   

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Think I'm going to unfollow this thread now.   Said all I can / need to, really.   Atm I seem to be just batting back repeated attacks from emotional people wanting to 'shoot the messenger'. 

I've probably got stronger personal  views against doxxing than many of you.  In an ideal world, I'd like to see it illegal even to participate in a twitter 'lynch mob' / campaign to get people "found and fired" IRL for doing/saying 'offensive' things.   I'd like to see legal protection for employees and students to prevent them being fired/expelled for ANY (otherwise legal) activity which takes place outside of work / when not in uniform.   I'd happily protect the "deplorable bigots" out there and the "anonymous sex workers" in one, non-partisan single swoop. 

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2 hours ago, CaptainObvious said:

I think the creators here deserve the utmost respect the risk they are taking by creating the content we enjoy, regardless of what you think of their opinions. These people are essentially small local business, and if you don’t what they have to say don’t buy from them.

As a final funny thought.... I'll have to double check this area of law but if said creators actually set themselves up as registered companies... they might just be able to claim their IRL identities / home addresses are a legally enforceable 'trade secret' 😂

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8 hours ago, dania201 said:

MrFroggy’s main argument is that since it’s hard to prosecute the doxxer, we should just throw up our hands and fault the victim for...whatever the doxxer was upset about. 
 

For someone who is so for lAw anD oRdeR it’s staring that you think the fault shouldn’t be with the bad actors themselves. Yes, we should lock our doors and be careful. But if someone breaks in, kills you in your sleep, the public shouldn't be like “this is why even if you have a gun, you shouldn’t sleep that deeply at night. Don’t be mad at the burglar, criminals going to crime—try not to be the one they want to crime on.” No woman in America thinks this is the ideal way to live. 

No he's just being practical. I get his whole argument and we can't be blind to the fact that ideals and the practical world are two different things. 

Let's say I have a large gold bar. Now I have many ways to keep it. I could:

1) Hang it around my neck and walk through the most crime-ridden backalley in town.

2) Keep it concealed in my jacket and take a more publicly visible and safer detour

3) Leave it at home in a drawer

4) Keep it safe in a safety deposit box

These are just some examples, and for each, there is a different level of risk of losing the gold bar that I subject myself to. Whatever my choice, I could get robbed or burgled, or the bank could get robbed and I lose my gold bar. In all instances, the robber/burglar is wrong and should be prosecuted. But should I be expecting myself to very likely be robbed if I picked option 1 above? Yep.

I'm not saying Mary is like, picking option 1 in this instance but maybe option 2. It was relatively more probable that something bad would happen out of it given her political views, how she shows her face, etc as compared to someone who doesnt show her face, doesnt reveal political views and always rents an obscure studio for her videos. Was she wrong? No. Could she have protected herself better? Yes. Is the doxxer at fault? Also yes.

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5 hours ago, Mr Froggy said:

 

 

 

What I'm suggesting for content creators is that you're deluded if you think you can be politically active AND show your face online nowadays without having your IRL identity eventually figured out and exposed.  So my suggestion is simply to stop thinking you can have your cake and eat it because internets is serious business.  Being an adult content creator isn't even relevant to the crux of this argument tbh - though it certainly doesn't help matters!   It just pours gasoline on an already uneasy fire. 

I am a pragmatist so my suggestion is Choose.   What's more important to you?  The money and adoration that comes to you from a thousand simps fawning over your pretty face?   Or your (likely unoriginal and superfluous) political opinions?     

If you want to remain anonymous - you can either show your face + maintain a careful lowkey presence, steering clear of controversial subjects  *OR*   you can be as politically active and outspoken as you like... But without showing your face. 

 

Just to note that this either/or makes no sense whatsoever. Creators are just as likely to get doxxed by some kid who's upset they won't meet up in person as by some kid who doesn't like their political opinions. It may even be the same one...

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(edited)

My main concern with our different examples is that the closest real life analog is råpe and råpe culture. The idea that someone would be raped and our response would be “well, what did she do to cause a rapist to want to do that to her? She probably should not have done whatever that was.”

Are there things that we can do as women to lessen our risk? Absolutely. But keeping the discussion there is dangerous because it creates a permission structure for råpe. In the same way, we need to avoid creating a permission structure for doxxing Curvage models or anyone. That’s why the “Mary kinda had it coming because _____” discussion runs thin on me. 

Edited by dania201

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I know he unfollowed this thread, but can someone explain why Froggy capitalizes certain letters in a short string of words? It feels creepy like a dog whistle or secret handshake. Is it a signal of some sort I’m unable to interpret? I feel others picked up on it too and wrote back in code mocking him by capitalizing certain letters in their response. 

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It’s called ‘Toggle case” and he uses it to make light of people who value said phrase. The idea is that if you write it like a toddler would, you can imply that those who appreciate said phrase to be toddlers. Watch:

American freedom

aMeRIcaN fReEdOmm  

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Mr Froggy's arguments essentially boil down to victim blaming. "Well it's not technically illegal, and by posting controversial statements they were asking for it."

This guy has already tipped his hand in other threads that he values his wank status over the livelihood of others, so I wouldn't really put much value into his opinion.

Should we be more careful on the internet? I suppose. But does that give people a free pass when they perform morally objectionable behavior (even if it's still technically legal)? Fuck no. And it's well within the rights of this platform to regulate that behavior.

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I feel that a lot of the conversation is centering on how to not be doxxed, but that's just a symptom really.

 

Obviously "there will always be one bad actor", but I think it matters a lot to do things to start pushing the number of people who will/might doxx down. It requires a cultural shift really. Sex work is real work, but isn't treated as such and is illegal in a lot of places. We need to be real with each other about why that is, and honestly a lot of it is toxic masculine ideas:

*sex work is female dominated and therefor lesser

*sex work isn't considered real work because of a false idea that it is too easy to be considered work 

*men look down on men who partake in sex work content, while also soon the same.

*consuming pron content is considered shameful, as 'real men' should just be able to get sex instead.

*the idiotic idea that any form of pron is an inferior version of sex and nothing more.

*the even more idiotic idea that anyone is 'owed sex' for any reason and that since pron is shitty sex, it should be super easy to be owed free pron from creators.

I could go on, but really all these things combine to make it so sex workers have to have a 'secret identity ' that can be doxxex, and  creates a low opinion of them even from their own clientele. I realize this is all kind of general for being about our collective fat kink, but this is what it is.

 

I still stand by what I said earlier in this thread about content consumers needing to self police A LOT better. You should be calling out randos for stealing snd reposting pics or content, you should boycott reupload farms, you should call out commentators and such being creeps to content creators, YOU SHOULD be OUTSPOKEN about how WRONG it is to be creepy to content creators in any way, from hateposts about them online, to dick picks, to DMs of unwarranted sexting.

"Real Men" should respect content creators more so than others just because of the service they provide. Make the creeps and doxxers feel uncomfortable for even being here, because you can be damn sure people being shitty to someone is am easy excuse to join in and go that one step further.

 

 

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Mary was, is and will always be my favorite model. I was so sad when I read her message in onlyfans. I don't wonder why they did that to her because I know that stupid people are everywhere in this planet. I only want to say to her (if she ever read this) that we, her fans, are totally support her and we know that she is a great person. Sure it's a very sad and dificult situation but she has to be strong and make clear to their people that she is a free person and she is free to live her life as she wants. I really wish she is ok.

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