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Anonymous 2578

Petition to remove the candids board

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I used to look at Curvage a long time ago, even back when it was called fat-celebs. At that time, I was just a young teen, and what I saw on this site made me feel not alone with my preferences. That was a positive. But it also seriously warped my views of what was OK. Curvage has always seemed like a community of fairly decent people, so when I saw candids on the site back then, my reaction wasn't one of being creeped out. It was one of "Hmm, I guess that's OK. After all, no one seems to be complaining about it." I hadn't ever seen anyone talking about the morality of the practice elsewhere, and it's legal in most places (exceptions include South Korea and Algeria), so at the time, it seemed OK. As I grew up, I stopped looking at Curvage and went on to other things. But that normalization of candid photos stuck with me.

A few years ago, when I was going through a very rough patch in my life and in my relationship, I took some candids of attractive women I saw out in public. Most were blurry and far away, but twice I even took a photo of someone in front of me in line. I always deleted the photos, never posted them anywhere, never fapped to them, and eventually stopped on my own due to the shame. To my knowledge I was never noticed, but that doesn't mean I couldn't have been. At the time, even though I felt embarrassed doing it, I didn't see it as wrong, in large part due to the fact that it was so normalized on here, and on some other sites. But years later, after reading about women's feelings on this issue and realizing how wrong it was, I feel guilt and shame about that behavior nearly every day. The pain I feel on a daily basis for doing this is something I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. And since I can't apologize to the random strangers I saw, I want to give my deepest apologies to the women of this site. I didn't get how it was wrong or hurtful at the time, but I get it now, and from the bottom of my heart, I'm sorry.

Currently, Curvage allows candid photos. And not just photos of people on the street, but photos of people in the gym, or on a train, or in other places where there is an elevated expectation of semi-privacy. It's not illegal but I think it is unquestionably morally wrong. I used to think that if no one noticed, that no one was getting hurt emotionally or physically, so it made it OK. And maybe if the photos aren't posted anywhere no one is getting hurt. But someone doesn't need to be hurt for something to be morally wrong and hurt society at large. And actually posting the photos does hurt people, especially if they find out.

If you're doing something that would make the person involved mad at you if they knew, and not because they're unreasonable, but because it's reasonable to be mad, then what you're doing is wrong. I think for many guys, having their photo taken unknowingly because they're seen as attractive would be flattering. (I know for me, that's how I would view it.) But the majority of women, maybe the vast majority of women from discussions I've seen, do *not* feel this way. With that in mind, taking photos is wrong. And posting those photos online goes one step further. It allows guys from anywhere to admire or fap to photos that are clearer than any they could recreate in their mind from the memory (folks with photographic memory aside).

Just knowing that these candids exist here probably makes women feel unsafe going out into the world. Because if it's happening here, it could be happening anywhere.

I can't take back those actions that I feel bad about, but we can stop a new generation of guys from making this same mistake, and we can stop allowing women to be viewed over the internet without their consent.

In summary, I strongly plead with the Curvage admins to delete all of the material in the candids board,  close that board down for good, and ban posting of candid photos on Curvage. Along with candids, I believe that photos of significant others taken or posted without their knowledge should also be banned. If you agree with this course of action, please add your voice here so that something can be done.

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This is a really well-stated and well-though-out request.  I'm sure there are some who will push back but all should appreciate the respectful perspective on this topic that the writer took, instead of moral high horsing or shaming.

I tend to agree with everything you stated.  I find myself looking through the candid pages frequently, but I often feel guilty about it afterwards.  I've taken pictures of my own fiance before without her knowing for my own personal use (not posting anywhere or sharing) and I have almost always deleted those because of the guilt.  I personally agree it is objectively immoral. I will not hold it against this site if it never removes candids... it's not necessarily their duty to keep users from posting and viewing candids. and like I said, I often "enjoy" the posts... But I would commend the admins if they did choose to remove and ban candids.

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@LorenzoStink Thanks for the support and for sharing your own struggle. I agree with you that it's immoral as well, but at least in that case, I think there's a good chance your fiancee wouldn't be upset about it, as long as you weren't sharing them. That's not to say it can't be bad, but it's definitely better than taking photos of strangers, where most would be upset.

In the past, I looked at the candids sometimes too, and only later realized that I was taking advantage of an unethical action. Sometimes even then I felt that a photo went too far - e.g., the gym photos always seemed more inappropriate than a photo taken outside from far away - but nonetheless I didn't always resist the urge to look.

It's all our individual responsibility to be the best people we can be, but let's not make it so easy for people to do the wrong thing.

I think that having a forum for candids implicitly encourages this behavior. I've seen some people say they are glad that there is a separate forum so they can avoid it, but I think it makes the problem worse overall, because it calls attention to it, both to users and producers. And unlike photos that are never shared (which are still bad), I think having the forum featured like that causes a produce-consume cycle where producers are taking more photos than they would have otherwise because they like the responses they get. I don't think the people taking the photos see any harm in what they're doing - perhaps viewing it as just appreciating women who are underappreciated - but it is harmful.

Sometimes we get so caught up in doing things that we don't take enough time to stop and think about what we're doing. I encourage anyone participating in the photographing or viewing to do some self-reflection to consider if that's really the person they want to be. The desire to not feel guilty about something can drive people to excuse it, but I'd much rather feel guilt and shame than continue to contribute to something that is inconsiderate to others.

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I don't care for candids and I get where you're coming from, but I'm going to have to largely disagree with you.  Based on my interpretation, this comes off to me as self-reinforcing the common idea that being an "FA" makes one a weirdo.  In my opinion, a lot of this being considered taboo has to do with social conditioning.

What is especially questionable about sharing candids of fat women in general compared to other people, especially if they're not outright creep shots?  It's not like users on here are going around trying to get upskirts for example.  A perfectly innocent non-sexual candid found on the web could be shared here because users here happen to find it attractive, and that would still be grounds to delete it under this policy.  People find a range of otherwise non-sexual things attractive.  There's nothing special about this in that regard.

Another aspect to consider is that you are more likely to hear from women who are irked by this, in the same way that the news is more likely to cover topics causing outrage, because anything else is mundane and unoteworthy.  You are much less likely to hear from women who couldn't be bothered to care, or even those who have vouyerstic kinks, which exist, believe it or not. This policy has the potential to be an overreach as well in other areas, but perhaps that's a conversation for another time.  

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Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this topic, @senorclean. I welcome all agreement and disagreement because I think this is an important topic.
 

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Based on my interpretation, this comes off to me as self-reinforcing the common idea that being an "FA" makes one a weirdo.  In my opinion, a lot of this being considered taboo has to do with social conditioning.


I want to be clear that my discomfort with candids has nothing specific to do with the size of the women involved. I don't think being an FA is weird (I am one) and I don't think it's wrong because it's taboo. I think taking and posting the candids wrong because many of the subjects being photographed would feel violated if they were to know.
 

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A perfectly innocent non-sexual candid found on the web could be shared here because users here happen to find it attractive, and that would still be grounds to delete it under this policy.


If it was a photo of a building or a plant or a cat, a reasonable person wouldn't consider that sexual. But I think a photo of a woman showing her shape, esp. in tight clothing, shared to a forum for appreciating her sexually, has to be considered a sexual candid. If however the photo was taken for other purposes, that would be different, but I've seen very few candids that weren't taken for the express purpose of appreciating the woman's body (and face).

To me, even if someone is just sharing a photo that exists somewhere else on the internet, the problem is that by re-distributing that image, we are compounding the negative ramifications of an unethical act. If the subject of the candid sees the photo and has no problem with it, then I don't think there's a problem. But given how rare that is (has it ever happened?), I think it is more sensible to ban them outright.
 

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Another aspect to consider is that you are more likely to hear from women who are irked by this, in the same way that the news is more likely to cover topics causing outrage, because anything else is mundane and unoteworthy.  You are much less likely to hear from women who couldn't be bothered to care, or even those who have vouyerstic kinks, which exist, believe it or not.


You are right that more women who are annoyed by this are more likely to respond, but in my readings of discussion on this topic on Reddit or elsewhere, I have seen responses from neutral to negative, but never positive, and the majority were negative. It seems statistically likely that there are women out there who like being photographed and appreciated this way, but I haven't come across any of them yet. Without knowing how someone would react, it seems like the default response should be to assume they will feel violated.

Also, although they're not an upskirt shot, I think photos of butts, especially in semi-private places like gyms, come dangerously close.

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Also, @senorclean I think that there could be candids which are OK depending on the intentions with which the photo was taken. E.g., if someone took a photo of someone because they were doing something interesting (a street performer, or someone juggling) or for some non-sexual reason and it was uploaded elsewhere on the internet and then that photo was shared here, that would probably be OK. But I think the vast majority if not all of the photos in Candids are photos that people have taken for the express purpose of appreciating curvy women for their sexiness. And that's the behavior that many women feel violated by, even if everyone looking at it has no malicious intentions. But if "candid" images like that were OK, they could be posted in the general areas, whereas I think having a Candids forum specifically encourages and condones the problematic behavior.

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As an example, I clicked a random one of the candid threads and it was definitely the kind of candid where the only point of the candid is that the woman in the photo is sexually appealing.

Furthermore, to the point about the forum encouraging the behavior, this is the comment that the user wrote:
 

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Been doing this for a few years, but I never knew of anywhere to post them. Thanks to this forum [emphasis mine] I can finally share all of my never-before-seen captures!


They may have been referring to Curvage in general, but I think this shows that having a Candids forum promotes the idea that taking and sharing photos is seen as OK or even good by the community.

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@Lake Terror Thanks for your input. I'm all for showcasing different opinions and people having different preferences. E.g., if someone has a kink for women vomiting, many people might think that's weird, but as long as the material is produced consensually, I don't see any issue with it at all. But to me the line should be drawn at things which are exploitative without consent, which is what this seems to be to me. What do you think about that?

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It's not pictures of people in private, like a bathroom or dressing room.

If you feel guilty about it, there's plenty of other websites to go to that don't have it.

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4 hours ago, high said:

It's not pictures of people in private, like a bathroom or dressing room.

If you feel guilty about it, there's plenty of other websites to go to that don't have it.

Thanks for your input, @high. I agree that taking pictures of people in private is worse, but taking pictures of people in public or in semi-private spaces like a gym in secret still seems bad. My concern isn't really with my own personal guilt here, but with the way that I believe distribution of candid photos hurts women (according to the women feeling hurt) and how this site is enabling that. You can argue that taking photos and not sharing them truly isn't hurting anyone, since no one is affected, even if it's immoral in another way. But once they're being distributed online, I don't think that holds. If you could guarantee that no woman noticed the action and felt unsafe, and that no image put on the forum was ever seen by any woman who feels hurt by the practice, then maybe you could make the argument that it's moral. But I don't think either of those things are realistic.

Whether having photos of their body being distributed online hurts women is something I think we may disagree on, but to me, I think that action is hurtful. Until I really thought about it, I didn't see it as such a big deal either, but I think if you put yourself in the shoes of a woman who feels unsafe having her photo shared online without her knowledge, you may come to believe that distributing such photos online is a hurtful act. I'm basing my view mainly on the reactions of most women I've seen online who feel hurt by it.

You could argue that despite women feeling hurt by this act that it's still not an immoral thing, but even if that were true, they feel hurt by it nonetheless. I'm not saying that every time anyone feels hurt by something that it becomes immoral. Perhaps most women feel hurt by men discussing how hot they are on an image board. Fair enough. But in the case that the person put their image online themselves, I think they've relinquished their right to how it is used, at least to some degree. But in this case, these women didn't put the image online themselves. So that's why I feel like their hurt is justified.

Thanks again for adding your voice to the discussion.

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Im somewhat sleep deprived atm so I'm not on Critical Thinking Top Form but these are my thoughts:

 

It's easy to draw a moral divide between hypothetical, perfect examples - but what about atypical cases or issues of 'conversion'?

I.e.  An innocent looking and niave girl uploads her own pics publically to social media.   It is generally considered OK to Fap to and/or fat shame her behind her back - *even though* she looks precisely the type who would be very hurt and offended by it if this ever crossed IRL.  

It's generally considered OK because she 'brought it on herself' by uploading material to the public internet.

Whereas... 

A very confident or deluded looking girl has a candid taken and it is similarly shared .... But this is to be considered automatically 'more wrong' than the first example merely because it was a candid? 

I think such a line of thought ("cancel candids") begs the question of whether the principle of "consent to (limited) public distribution by the subject excuses all subsequent distribution" ought to override the actual realistic potential for harm in individual cases?   If candids are wrong because they can potentially 'harm women' by bringing them to the attention of those who would seek to do them harm.... surely distributing publically available images of a non-famous individual is similarly wrong? 

Like if we're going to get into the ethics of it - should we not also consider matters of "conversion"?   Where the two issues intersect. 

I.e:

What if a girl is only negligently or incidentally included in the background of a photograph that was taken in public?  Say a forum member sees an image of a group of slim girls on social media... and there's a chubby girl "in the background"?    Say he crops and expands it so it so the image now features 'just' the chubby girl?  The incidental background has now became the intentional foreground.  This image lacked the initial intent to morally be a "problematic candid"... but it has since became one "by conversion" (i.e by editing it and  'intentionally distributing' it for sexual gratification or mockery). 

Is the primary immorality in the TAKING and distribution of ANY candid image?  (Even if the girl's inclusion is accidental / could not he helped?) 

Or is it in the specific 'intention' of the distribution?   

 

I ask this because if the 'moral blame' rests with the photographer -  we have therefore placed a moral obligation / duty of care upon all photographers to blur out anyone featured in the backgrounds of their images - lest they one day be discovered, distributed and doxed by those with illicit intentions...

And if the blame rests with the distributor (and with context of their specific intentions)... we've just condemned even those who 'find' lesser known public images and "show them off" in the whole "chubby girl compilation" forum too. 

We've in a sense created a kind of thoughtcrime;   legal distribution of legally taken (or publically uploaded) images only becomes immoral when the person distributing them (or even merely viewing them?!) is doing it for sexual gratification?   

So this means the true moral problem is with people who show pictures of women to men whom they reasonably suspect will feel a sexual attraction towards said women?    Men now owe women a duty of care to not bring them to the hypothetical, theoretical attention of predators? Etc 

Add 2 and 2 together ethically and it's no longer a slippery slope fallacy to argue "half of this whole forum should be shut down".  

Ultimately - we can debate about 'pure/immoral' candids but I certainly don't believe people have any right to expect their publically uploaded images should not be further distributed by those with "impure" intentions.   All those fappy forum distributors ought to do is "not be an asshole about it" - I. E don't dox the girl, don't send her anonymous messages fat shaming her for your own gratification ... and don't give away enough background details about where the candid was taken so that she one day may be doxed by someone else.   I.e maintain the girl's security through obscurity. 

 

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My little two sense... I am a girl in her early twenties, just like the ones in the ‘chubby sorority girl’ forums, or the girls in the candids. I have an issue with both the candids forum and picture compilations that are lifted from private Instagrams. Posting photos of college girls or a girl in a bikini at the beach is much different from a celebrity or model who consents to be sexualized and uses it to their advantage (aka me). They are already in the public eye / in the feederism community and know that their pics will be inevitably shared and picked apart  

This is about respecting women and their autonomy over their bodies. Women on this site are often treated as objects to look at, rather than a person with a life behind the photo. I think there is a severe lack of respect for women on this site by certain users. I have been told up to leave the site when I voiced my opinion before on a similar matter despite being a highly ranked model at the time (this is a new account). 

Let’s learn to respect and admire curvy women, not just fetishize them and objectify them. 
 

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I live in fear that one of my friends will appear on a ‘sorority girl’ forum, and check them regularly. I have a dissonance about modelling on a site that allows pictures taken without permission, or taken from a personal social media page. 

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4 hours ago, Stuffed Princess said:

My little two sense... I am a girl in her early twenties, just like the ones in the ‘chubby sorority girl’ forums, or the girls in the candids. I have an issue with both the candids forum and picture compilations that are lifted from private Instagrams. Posting photos of college girls or a girl in a bikini at the beach is much different from a celebrity or model who consents to be sexualized and uses it to their advantage (aka me). They are already in the public eye / in the feederism community and know that their pics will be inevitably shared and picked apart  

This is about respecting women and their autonomy over their bodies. Women on this site are often treated as objects to look at, rather than a person with a life behind the photo. I think there is a severe lack of respect for women on this site by certain users. I have been told up to leave the site when I voiced my opinion before on a similar matter despite being a highly ranked model at the time (this is a new account). 

Let’s learn to respect and admire curvy women, not just fetishize them and objectify them. 
 

I think that observation cuts to one of the (numerous) contradictory dualities at the heart of this fetish. 

For many (myself included, if I'm getting honest and introspective), it is not truly "fat acceptance" that we're into.  That's just a polite euphemism.   In truth, we only "accept" fat women for the purpose of facilitating our own sexual arousal based on subconscious dominance.  We only "accept" them so that we can become aroused by fetishizing them. 

This site might claim to be about "respecting women" and "fat acceptance" - but if it took a puritanical stance against the more 'problematic'  "Fat Fetishists" (I.e those who are here to objectify and become aroused at the thought of dominating/shaming overweight women).... there'd probably be far fewer active users.   This site would become closer in attitude to private fat-acceptance Tumblr blogs, where narcassistic and deluded girls chastise and block all those who don't call them a "fat slut" in an empowering and feminist-enough way. 

Ultimately, for all the lofty "anti candid" / "pro-respecting-women" arguments that can be made.... you can't make horny men care.  If this site were to 'ban' the candids and compilation forums... someone amoral would simply set up a competitor within a few days and leech all these users;  and this new 'pure' site wouldn't even need to have the veneer of 'respecting women'. 

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Agreed. The candids are creepy. I’m less upset by reused Facebook or Instagram photos because at least those women consented to have their picture taken and posted it. 
 

I would be MORTIFIED to see myself in the candids forum. Even if people say it’s “appreciation” it’s really just lusting over random non-consenting women. Women who may not think of themselves as fat even. 
 

All that said. You can’t stop people from doing it. So it’s kinda moot. 

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8 hours ago, Stuffed Princess said:

My little two sense... I am a girl in her early twenties, just like the ones in the ‘chubby sorority girl’ forums, or the girls in the candids. I have an issue with both the candids forum and picture compilations that are lifted from private Instagrams. Posting photos of college girls or a girl in a bikini at the beach is much different from a celebrity or model who consents to be sexualized and uses it to their advantage (aka me). They are already in the public eye / in the feederism community and know that their pics will be inevitably shared and picked apart  

This is about respecting women and their autonomy over their bodies. Women on this site are often treated as objects to look at, rather than a person with a life behind the photo. I think there is a severe lack of respect for women on this site by certain users. I have been told up to leave the site when I voiced my opinion before on a similar matter despite being a highly ranked model at the time (this is a new account). 

Let’s learn to respect and admire curvy women, not just fetishize them and objectify them. 
 

I completely agree. I couldn't have said it better myself👏

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I have yet to read all the above arguments (most of which I'm sure are very well thought out and explained and all of them certainly coming from a good place) - and also my sympathy for anyone on the receiving end of vitriol (like Stuffed Princess' account of being told to leave the site) for believing in an overhaul of such content. But I do believe the Candids section should remain in some capacity.

I can understand the right to not be seen, but it does impede on the right to see - therefore, it cannot be made all-inclusive. If one was to take a photo of a public place and there just so happened to be a person in that photo who catches the eye of users here, then the concept of censoring said photo simply because of assumed negative reactions (which some enlightened individuals can argue is borne out of internalized fat shaming) from the viewers onto the people featured in the photo would be carte blanche to remove any and all such photos anywhere in the unlikely chance that they stumble across that photo on a site like this and completely ignore or disregard the context of this site's worldviews. For example, I can google "disneyland tourists" and quickly return images with individuals who would definitely fit in with the content sought here. I believe Google is legally shielded in having such content easily accessible.

If that's the main issue of this scenario, then perhaps we can get rid of comments, or maybe make it into a comment-free part of the gallery section. Maybe, a small censoring of that person (black bar over the eyes).

Some photos can irrefutably be distasteful, like non-consent nudes, upskirts and compromising info (like an unredacted face of a young lady leaving an abortion clinic or gay bar). Obviously, underaged people should never be posted here whatsoever and with candids you never can confirm who is or isn't of legal age. In those events, heavy moderation and administrative attention is needed. Also, I don't know how this would impact morphs as many morph requests involve people who have little to no fame (however that can be defined given how unquantifiable it is) or interest in this subculture to the degree of asking for such manipulation of their image.

Curvage is intended to be a place where women are appreciated for curves. Yes, there are toxic elements (some that can become more out of control than others), but salting the earth over candids may have reverberations that cause an inevitable downfall of this site as a whole and others like it. If we change things, let's do so with caution.

Also, IMPORTANT (This may require administrative response): If we have petitions like these, what is the benchmark for these requests and suggestions to get implemented? Is it a certain number of user complaints? A certain percentage? An amount of times this has been brought up in a period of time?

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Imagine not feeling comfortable being out in public because you’re afraid of a stranger following you and taking a picture of you... yeah. It’s a reality for me and the rest of the women on this site. When I look at the candids, I feel concern for the woman, and I feel unsafe. Fuck the candids forum. 

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